Why is using environment surroundings bad?

[Christopher]

So DP was created with rocks, hills, caves, ice & other things that can be jumped on. some of these things have been placed in boss rooms. If these things have been placed somewhere & able to access it from the beginning to help you fight then you think it would be a good thing. though unfortunately it is not. OK some of these lead to things that did need to be fixed & some just a harmless rock, ice, etc..
The creators put them there knowing full well it could be used as an advantage when the game was made & it was left alone after it was released & usually that means they wanted that to be part of the game.

if a game is created with rocks to jump on, you should be able to jump on them just like if a game is created with dragons to fly around on. you should be able to fly on them.
Removing the ability of environmental use in one area when it was created that way & is like that all other areas of DP... yea..

 

[Yuuyake]

What are you not allowed to jump on? o.o

Edit: I understand now.

 

[Seiichi]

So DP was created with rocks, hills, caves, ice & other things that can be jumped on. some of these things have been placed in boss rooms. If these things have been placed somewhere & able to access it from the beginning to help you fight then you think it would be a good thing. though unfortunately it is not. OK some of these lead to things that did need to be fixed & some just a harmless rock, ice, etc..
The creators put them there knowing full well it could be used as an advantage when the game was made & it was left alone after it was released & usually that means they wanted that to be part of the game.

if a game is created with rocks to jump on, you should be able to jump on them just like if a game is created with dragons to fly around on. you should be able to fly on them.
Removing the ability of environmental use in one area when it was created that way & is like that all other areas of DP... yea..

Game design normally starts with designing the maps, then designing the story, then designing the mobs and then doing the logic and AI for them. Meaning the dungeon map would have been done first and the bosses would have been done afterwards. An example of this is the fact that Devouring Void (the dungeon we previewed) is completely designed, but had only one boss in it that lacks AI other than a basic attack.

Runewaker has a history of not fixing major bugs, so fixing a bosses AI being bypassed to the extent that he may as well not be there at all is unlikely. This was fixed while fixing a few other bugs with Racmon Grotto.

We may make changes to make the boss less reaction based.

 

[MystikStorm]

I still do not understand why put a wall there to stop players from using rock? Its a place where people go with high ping and lag if they can not jump the blades that the boss throws, the mobs still run to you can can kill you on the rock, so its not like its cheating or an exploit. I even went over to EU to see if they put a wall and they do not have one up because its not a exploit and does help players with high ping bad fps and lag. I have asked people here and over in EU on how many people use it and they told me some players do use it but of course players with high ping bad Fps and lag us it more.

I did get told it can be done with a Ironhide and a bird but if you suffer from the three things I said above than you will find it extremely hard.

The first boss is the only boss that I myself find the hardest and this has just made it almost impossible.

 

[Seiichi]

I still do not understand why put a wall there to stop players from using rock? Its a place where people go with high ping and lag if they can not jump the blades that the boss throws, the mobs still run to you can can kill you on the rock, so its not like its cheating or an exploit. I even went over to EU to see if they put a wall and they do not have one up because its not a exploit and does help players with high ping bad fps and lag. I have asked people here and over in EU on how many people use it and they told me some players do use it but of course players with high ping bad Fps and lag us it more.

I did get told it can be done with a Ironhide and a bird but if you suffer from the three things I said above than you will find it extremely hard.

The first boss is the only boss that I myself find the hardest and this has just made it almost impossible.

To get to the rock you have to utilize geometry glitching (Video game exploits - Wikipedia) which then allows you to bypass the majority of the attacks made by that boss; that is pretty much the definition of an exploit, even if it is relatively minor. There were several other exploits of various severity fixed at the same time, so the argument that Runewaker left these there intentionally isn't a valid one (one was extremely severe, and shows a poor level of QA on their part).

If the majority of the bosses attacks weren't negated by the use of the rock, or if the rock didn't require geometry glitching to access it could have been left the way it was. For example, the rock at pirates in Olandra is perfectly fine to use, as you can access it as a player without climbing along the geometry of a mountain to get there. In contrast accessing old Satuma requires using geometry glitching to get around a barrier.

Because this boss is harder for people who have lag, FPS issues or suffer from mobility issues, we are going to talk over options for making it less reaction based or some other solution. We have also been researching and discussing solutions for lag issues some of our players get, and have some plans that may help if we can implement them properly.

 

[Kodawolf]

Just wondering what you mean by - "climbing along the geometry of a mountain to get there." do you mean having to go out of your way to scale up a wall and look for "hidden platforms? if so this particular rock doesn't need this as it was a simple double jump just like you would ion the rock at Orlandra.. you can still die in this spot if a mob in the boss room decides to chase you as it is accessible by them too... so i too don't understand how this is deemed an exploit.. and yes were other exploits that you really did need to climb or glitch through walls from what i remember but this one was not one of those..

I also read the Exploit link you posted and this in particular -
Geometry
Taking advantage of how the game world is built. Typically the goal of these exploits is to reach normally inaccessible areas or take unintended shortcuts in the game world. These are commonly achieved by going through walls, crossing invisible barriers made by the programmers, or scaling ledges not intended to be climbable.

The rock we are talking about is by no means in an inaccessible areas as like i said it is a simple double jump and you are on the rock.. not climbing or taking shortcuts there is no hidden ledge or glitches..
I'd be more than happy to show you the rock (even tho i hate RG)

 

[Christopher]

ok, thanks for the response Seiichi. I do see what your saying & all & great full your doing your the best to fix things. It was just honestly all this time all i've seen that rock for is a rock like any other rock or debris i jump on to avoid getting hit elsewhere in the game.

 

[Seiichi]

Just wondering what you mean by - "climbing along the geometry of a mountain to get there." do you mean having to go out of your way to scale up a wall and look for "hidden platforms? if so this particular rock doesn't need this as it was a simple double jump just like you would ion the rock at Orlandra.. you can still die in this spot if a mob in the boss room decides to chase you as it is accessible by them too... so i too don't understand how this is deemed an exploit.. and yes were other exploits that you really did need to climb or glitch through walls from what i remember but this one was not one of those..

I also read the Exploit link you posted and this in particular -
Geometry
Taking advantage of how the game world is built. Typically the goal of these exploits is to reach normally inaccessible areas or take unintended shortcuts in the game world. These are commonly achieved by going through walls, crossing invisible barriers made by the programmers, or scaling ledges not intended to be climbable.

The rock we are talking about is by no means in an inaccessible areas as like i said it is a simple double jump and you are on the rock.. not climbing or taking shortcuts there is no hidden ledge or glitches..
I'd be more than happy to show you the rock (even tho i hate RG)

You are still utilizing the rock to bypass the attacks of the first boss in a way that is not intended. We are not going to pick and choose which bugs and exploits are fixed, though we may take some into consideration for some quality of life adjustments.

The final decision is that the rocks will remained blocked off, and that we will look at modifying the attack pattern of the first boss so that people who have lag or low FPS have an easier time than just relying on reaction speed.

 

[Kefira]

If you have the rock already blocked off and are in the future going to change the boss, why not leave the rock there until then? You've said that this boss is very difficult to kill for people without this rock and without the boss being nerfed. Would leaving it at the current predicament not lower the overall moral of the higher level players who are investing in the longevity of this server? I know you are trying very hard to weed out glitches and exploits, and that is always a good thing this one just seems to not have a happy conclusion for you or the player base. Just putting out my thoughts, no offense intended at all. ^^
Thank you for your continued work in fixing the glitches that I am sure are indelible and frequent. <3

 

[Seiichi]

If you have the rock already blocked off and are in the future going to change the boss, why not leave the rock there until then? You've said that this boss is very difficult to kill for people without this rock and without the boss being nerfed. Would leaving it at the current predicament not lower the overall moral of the higher level players who are investing in the longevity of this server? I know you are trying very hard to weed out glitches and exploits, and that is always a good thing this one just seems to not have a happy conclusion for you or the player base. Just putting out my thoughts, no offense intended at all. ^^
Thank you for your continued work in fixing the glitches that I am sure are indelible and frequent. <3

Because picking and choosing exploits to fix is a slippery slope; if we choose to fix other exploits in that same dungeon that provide a similar benefit (avoiding boss attack patterns or bosses entirely), but leave one because it benefits primarily one group of players, we will be accused of favoritism. The best we can do is make changes to the boss to simplify attack patterns to account for people with issues.

If this boss had a more varied attack pattern, or if the boss wasn't stationary it would likely have been a different matter. When the majority of the attack patterns of a stationary boss are negated to the point the boss may as well not be there, it is clearly not something as intended. If the boss hadn't been fully stationary, or if the attack pattern was more varied it would not have been as much of an issue.